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Do feelings continue?


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#1 Pedro Bessa

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Posted 20 March 2007 - 04:09 AM

We came from dust. We will return to dust. Does the universe transform old beings into new beings from dust? When I am transformed into an other being, do feelings continue?

#2 Mr.Kite

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Posted 20 March 2007 - 01:51 PM

No.


No brain, no feeling. Once the structure of your body breaks down into dust, and are no longer organized into a being with a brain, there will be nothing left capable of experiencing feelings.

#3 Pedro Bessa

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Posted 22 March 2007 - 06:02 AM

"(...) there will be nothing left capable of experiencing feelings." What happens after the dust is reorganized into a being with a brain?

#4 Mr.Kite

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Posted 29 March 2007 - 10:31 PM

Then a new brain is formed, with a new awareness. An awareness that is different from the old one, because the organizational structure is new. If you replicated the previous brain, atom for atom, and preserved all the kinetic energy of all the particles, then you would reproduce the same person with the same feelings and the same awareness.

#5 peacan pie

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Posted 18 April 2007 - 04:59 PM

Of couse, that's only if you believe we came from dust. Ask yourself, " Does dust feel?", and then you'll have your answer. wink.gif
Hope is an anchor, and Love is a ship, Time is the ocean, and Life is a trip, You dont know where your goin' til' you know where your at, And if you can't read the Stars, well you better have a Map, A Compass and a Conscience, so you don't get lost at Sea, Out on some lonely Island where no one wants to be. From the beginning of Creation, I think our Maker had a plan, For us to leave these Shores and sail beyond the sand, Let the Good Light guide us through the waves and the wind, to the Beaches of the World, where we have never been, And we'll climb up on the Mountain yall and let our voices ring, And those who've never tried it, They'll be the first to Sing.

"Life ain't always beautiful......"
-Gary Allan-

Only one way to go, and it sure ain't down; Once you've hit rock bottom, there's only one way out.- FHL

#6 virtualcyber

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Posted 24 May 2007 - 10:33 PM

QUOTE(peacan pie @ Apr 18 2007, 05:59 PM) View Post
Of couse, that's only if you believe we came from dust. Ask yourself, " Does dust feel?", and then you'll have your answer. wink.gif

And how would one know whether dust "feels"?


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#7 virtualcyber

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Posted 24 May 2007 - 10:35 PM

QUOTE(Mr.Kite @ Mar 29 2007, 11:31 PM) View Post
If you replicated the previous brain, atom for atom, and preserved all the kinetic energy of all the particles, then you would reproduce the same person with the same feelings and the same awareness.

And the answer may still be .... no you would not reproduce the "same" person.

You would only have a damned good duplicate, but it may not be the same person.

There is also the theory that identity and awareness go together, which means that the awareness cannot be duplicated.
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#8 peacan pie

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Posted 01 June 2007 - 08:41 AM

QUOTE(virtualcyber @ May 24 2007, 11:33 PM) View Post
And how would one know whether dust "feels"?

Exactly. Do you know if dust feels? No, but if you believe that dust feels, well then........... It's like the question, "Does God exist?" Everyone has a different opinion.
Hope is an anchor, and Love is a ship, Time is the ocean, and Life is a trip, You dont know where your goin' til' you know where your at, And if you can't read the Stars, well you better have a Map, A Compass and a Conscience, so you don't get lost at Sea, Out on some lonely Island where no one wants to be. From the beginning of Creation, I think our Maker had a plan, For us to leave these Shores and sail beyond the sand, Let the Good Light guide us through the waves and the wind, to the Beaches of the World, where we have never been, And we'll climb up on the Mountain yall and let our voices ring, And those who've never tried it, They'll be the first to Sing.

"Life ain't always beautiful......"
-Gary Allan-

Only one way to go, and it sure ain't down; Once you've hit rock bottom, there's only one way out.- FHL

#9 virtualcyber

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Posted 03 June 2007 - 09:01 PM

QUOTE(peacan pie @ Jun 1 2007, 09:41 AM) View Post
Exactly. Do you know if dust feels? No, but if you believe that dust feels, well then........... It's like the question, "Does God exist?" Everyone has a different opinion.

I do not mean to be rude by asking this, but as people don't always reveal their gender in forums -- you are a man, correct?

When I read your posts, I get an odd feeling, but I don't know why.
Ji-Yong David Chung

#10 peacan pie

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Posted 07 June 2007 - 10:00 AM

You get an odd feeling about what? No, I am not a man...............though why that is even relevent, I haven't a clue. An odd feeling?!! Explanation please.
Hope is an anchor, and Love is a ship, Time is the ocean, and Life is a trip, You dont know where your goin' til' you know where your at, And if you can't read the Stars, well you better have a Map, A Compass and a Conscience, so you don't get lost at Sea, Out on some lonely Island where no one wants to be. From the beginning of Creation, I think our Maker had a plan, For us to leave these Shores and sail beyond the sand, Let the Good Light guide us through the waves and the wind, to the Beaches of the World, where we have never been, And we'll climb up on the Mountain yall and let our voices ring, And those who've never tried it, They'll be the first to Sing.

"Life ain't always beautiful......"
-Gary Allan-

Only one way to go, and it sure ain't down; Once you've hit rock bottom, there's only one way out.- FHL

#11 Mr.Kite

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Posted 08 June 2007 - 02:42 PM

QUOTE(virtualcyber @ May 24 2007, 08:35 PM) View Post
And the answer may still be .... no you would not reproduce the "same" person.

You would only have a damned good duplicate, but it may not be the same person.

There is also the theory that identity and awareness go together, which means that the awareness cannot be duplicated.

I suppose it depends on your criteria for personal identity. To me it seems absurd to go in for a claim that involves personal identity to be anything above and beyond the interactions of the cells that make up our bodies (and most importantly our brains). So I tend to opt for a position on personal identity similar to that of David Parfit.

As for the "awareness" position, pending an elaboration/sophistication of that position, there seems to be simple argument against it: You are the same person before you go to bed as you are after you wake up the next day. You loose awareness while sleeping. Thus, awareness is not necessary (nor sufficient) for the continued identity of persons.

#12 virtualcyber

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Posted 18 June 2007 - 02:55 PM

QUOTE(Mr.Kite @ Jun 8 2007, 03:42 PM) View Post
I suppose it depends on your criteria for personal identity. To me it seems absurd to go in for a claim that involves personal identity to be anything above and beyond the interactions of the cells that make up our bodies (and most importantly our brains). So I tend to opt for a position on personal identity similar to that of David Parfit.

I have not read David Parfit, so I am not sure what that is.


QUOTE
As for the "awareness" position, pending an elaboration/sophistication of that position, there seems to be simple argument against it: You are the same person before you go to bed as you are after you wake up the next day. You loose awareness while sleeping. Thus, awareness is not necessary (nor sufficient) for the continued identity of persons.

That is one possibility. Another possibility is that awareness may be attached to a particular biological mass, and creating another biological mass may not recreate the awareness. Analogy: One can create multiple running "instances" of the same program. But one instance of the program is not the same as the other instance.

Your point about sleeping is interesting. One counter argument is that when one sleeps, one's awareness is not actually "lost." Rather, it gets into another state -- which one may have difficulty remembering, like dreams.



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#13 virtualcyber

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Posted 18 June 2007 - 03:08 PM

QUOTE(peacan pie @ Jun 7 2007, 11:00 AM) View Post
You get an odd feeling about what? No, I am not a man...............though why that is even relevent, I haven't a clue. An odd feeling?!! Explanation please.

No, it doesn't touch the topic.

I imagined that I read in this forum you are of male sex. But when I viewed your posts, I kept getting the "odd" feeling that you are a woman.

What I felt in your posts: they ooze feminine intuition. I don't have any hard fact to support that statement.

In any case, I did not mean to offend.
Ji-Yong David Chung

#14 Ras

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Posted 19 June 2007 - 12:40 PM

Parfit would argue that:

1) Personal identity is indeterminate. There is no hard structuring of self-identity.

2) Personal identity is a continuum based on connections. Self-identity is established through sense of sameness.
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#15 virtualcyber

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Posted 19 June 2007 - 01:01 PM

QUOTE(Ras @ Jun 19 2007, 01:40 PM) View Post
Parfit would argue that:

1) Personal identity is indeterminate. There is no hard structuring of self-identity.

2) Personal identity is a continuum based on connections. Self-identity is established through sense of sameness.

I probably need to do some reading before I can make worthwhile comments ... but hey that never stopped me before from putting foot in my mouth ... ph34r.gif

It seems to me that a being has to have awareness before that being can acquire self-identity and/or self-awareness.

At intuitive level, it seems that for there to be awareness, there has to be something that perceives. Why is that thing which "perceives" happened to be that particular biological mass called "me"/"you"? I don't think the above definition of self-identity or personal identity answers that question, which I think has more bearing on whether one can clone one's consciousness (i.e., be conscious of two bodies at the same time).
Ji-Yong David Chung

#16 peacan pie

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Posted 19 June 2007 - 03:10 PM

But couldn't one argue that one has self-identity without being aware of it? Not much to say about that, just a thought. But personally, no, I don't think you would in any way be able to reproduce the same person, seeing as how when you die, you aren't coming back, and even if one believes in reincarnation, you would never come back as the same exact person, live the ssame exact life, have the same exact memories/experiences. As for self-identity, whose to say that if you did live the same exact life, that you would interpret your experiences in the same way, that you would come to the same conclusions? And in my experiences, very few people are ever truly "aware", of themselves, of their environment, of anything really. Ah, I seem to be rambling, so I'll leave it here
Hope is an anchor, and Love is a ship, Time is the ocean, and Life is a trip, You dont know where your goin' til' you know where your at, And if you can't read the Stars, well you better have a Map, A Compass and a Conscience, so you don't get lost at Sea, Out on some lonely Island where no one wants to be. From the beginning of Creation, I think our Maker had a plan, For us to leave these Shores and sail beyond the sand, Let the Good Light guide us through the waves and the wind, to the Beaches of the World, where we have never been, And we'll climb up on the Mountain yall and let our voices ring, And those who've never tried it, They'll be the first to Sing.

"Life ain't always beautiful......"
-Gary Allan-

Only one way to go, and it sure ain't down; Once you've hit rock bottom, there's only one way out.- FHL

#17 Ras

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Posted 20 June 2007 - 11:08 AM

QUOTE(virtualcyber @ Jun 19 2007, 02:31 PM) View Post
I probably need to do some reading before I can make worthwhile comments ... but hey that never stopped me before from putting foot in my mouth ... ph34r.gif

It seems to me that a being has to have awareness before that being can acquire self-identity and/or self-awareness.

At intuitive level, it seems that for there to be awareness, there has to be something that perceives. Why is that thing which "perceives" happened to be that particular biological mass called "me"/"you"? I don't think the above definition of self-identity or personal identity answers that question, which I think has more bearing on whether one can clone one's consciousness (i.e., be conscious of two bodies at the same time).


Self-consciousness arises from consciousness. Self-identity, properly understood, only evolves through difference. To be self-identical, one must be other-differentiated. This difference is precipitated by the apprehension that self and world are distinct, and that one is a self-in-the-world. To understand one's self as a subject, one must comprehend one's self as an object among other objects.
I have a total irreverence for anything connected with society except that which makes the roads safer, the beer stronger, the food cheaper and the old men and old women warmer in the winter and happier in the summer.

- Brendan Behan

#18 virtualcyber

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Posted 20 June 2007 - 03:15 PM

QUOTE(Ras @ Jun 20 2007, 12:08 PM) View Post
Self-consciousness arises from consciousness. Self-identity, properly understood, only evolves through difference. To be self-identical, one must be other-differentiated. This difference is precipitated by the apprehension that self and world are distinct, and that one is a self-in-the-world. To understand one's self as a subject, one must comprehend one's self as an object among other objects.

This seems to describe evolutionary process that a baby goes through as the baby grows in awareness. (Please correct me if I am wrong here).

I am interested in a slightly different aspect of "identity."

For the sake of explanation, say a tiny man sits inside a control station (in the skull of robot) and controls the robot. The tiny man sees and perceive things through the eyes and senses of the robot. The robot also has memory, which is stored in tiny little DVD's in a library inside the control center.

I am saying that a human body is like that robot, and that "consciousness" (or awareness) is like that tiny man. If one swapped all of the robot's DVD's (its memory) with those of another, it still wouldn't change the sense of "self" as long as the same tiny man were seated inside the robot's control station. On the other hand, if the tiny man were replaced with another tiny man, the robot would not be "same," even if all of the robot's memories were intact.

It seems to me, before one can even apprehend that the self and world are distinct, there has to be a "perceiver." The uniqueness of the perceiver has nothing to do with memory or learning.
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#19 peacan pie

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Posted 20 June 2007 - 03:50 PM

You're assuming that the consciousness controls the human body, but doesn't consciousness come from the fact that we are human? And it's not like you could replace your own consciousness with that of another. And you're saying that consciousness controls you, when really you are the one in control of your consciousness. Some would argue that there are those without consciousness, but in reality, we all have consciousness, but many choose not to use it. And if you believe that the perciever is in fact unique, then the same person could not be re-created, because then the perciever would no longer be unique. perhaps I'm getting in over my head here..............
Hope is an anchor, and Love is a ship, Time is the ocean, and Life is a trip, You dont know where your goin' til' you know where your at, And if you can't read the Stars, well you better have a Map, A Compass and a Conscience, so you don't get lost at Sea, Out on some lonely Island where no one wants to be. From the beginning of Creation, I think our Maker had a plan, For us to leave these Shores and sail beyond the sand, Let the Good Light guide us through the waves and the wind, to the Beaches of the World, where we have never been, And we'll climb up on the Mountain yall and let our voices ring, And those who've never tried it, They'll be the first to Sing.

"Life ain't always beautiful......"
-Gary Allan-

Only one way to go, and it sure ain't down; Once you've hit rock bottom, there's only one way out.- FHL

#20 virtualcyber

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Posted 20 June 2007 - 07:12 PM

QUOTE(peacan pie @ Jun 20 2007, 04:50 PM) View Post
You're assuming that the consciousness controls the human body, but doesn't consciousness come from the fact that we are human?

That is possible. It is also possible that consciousness is something more global or universal, and other kinds of life forms may have given birth to "consciousness." Perhaps even plants (e.g., nut, seed, rose buds) have consciouosness.

QUOTE
And it's not like you could replace your own consciousness with that of another. And you're saying that consciousness controls you, when really you are the one in control of your consciousness.

I am not sure if I am in control of my consciousness or it is the other way around. If I remember what I tend to think or dream about, I notice my little head tends to wander off in its own way. Perhaps that is related to the fact that consciousness is nothing but nerve cells unloading neurotransmitters to other cellular bodies. I don't think that is controllable.

For example, if I see a woman, I cannot control what colors of her clothes I perceive. Once those light rays penetrate through my eyeballs, I cannot control what specific neurons are stimulated or turned on..

QUOTE
perhaps I'm getting in over my head here..............

These threads are for expressing/showing oneself. Whatever information or truth you lay bare, that is sufficient.

Ji-Yong David Chung

#21 nightop

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Posted 16 July 2007 - 09:03 PM

QUOTE(Ras @ Jun 20 2007, 11:08 AM) View Post
Self-consciousness arises from consciousness. Self-identity, properly understood, only evolves through difference. To be self-identical, one must be other-differentiated. This difference is precipitated by the apprehension that self and world are distinct, and that one is a self-in-the-world. To understand one's self as a subject, one must comprehend one's self as an object among other objects.


smile.gif

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READ MIND & MUSCLE ARTICLES FROM PAST ISSUES.

#22 Pedro Bessa

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Posted 20 September 2007 - 05:50 PM

Who am i???

#23 Ras

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Posted 03 October 2007 - 11:58 AM

QUOTE(nightop @ Jul 16 2007, 10:33 PM) View Post
smile.gif

I wish I wasn't out of gold Hegel star-stickers.


You'd need gold Schelling star-stickers. It's more abgrund than urgrund.
I have a total irreverence for anything connected with society except that which makes the roads safer, the beer stronger, the food cheaper and the old men and old women warmer in the winter and happier in the summer.

- Brendan Behan

#24 Pedro Bessa

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Posted 15 October 2007 - 04:10 AM

We will be transformed into dust and dust into an other being. If directly, is there any difference?

#25 peacan pie

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Posted 15 November 2007 - 02:35 PM

Who says we turn to dust?
Hope is an anchor, and Love is a ship, Time is the ocean, and Life is a trip, You dont know where your goin' til' you know where your at, And if you can't read the Stars, well you better have a Map, A Compass and a Conscience, so you don't get lost at Sea, Out on some lonely Island where no one wants to be. From the beginning of Creation, I think our Maker had a plan, For us to leave these Shores and sail beyond the sand, Let the Good Light guide us through the waves and the wind, to the Beaches of the World, where we have never been, And we'll climb up on the Mountain yall and let our voices ring, And those who've never tried it, They'll be the first to Sing.

"Life ain't always beautiful......"
-Gary Allan-

Only one way to go, and it sure ain't down; Once you've hit rock bottom, there's only one way out.- FHL

#26 Proton Soup

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Posted 17 November 2007 - 04:44 AM

Kansas

#27 kevbo

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Posted 13 May 2008 - 04:33 PM

This is something I have pondered many times when I was unable to sleep for one reason or another.

My personal belief is that there is no "god" as portrayed in the Bible, Quran, etc., but that our universe is a tiny piece -- an "atom" per se -- of a larger structure.

In lieu of this, I do believe that the atoms that make you and me up will eventually be scattered when we die, and through some miraculous chain of events, can eventually be transformed into another being. However, it is hard for me to go much deeper than this because the illusion of *my* self-consciousness gets in the way of me making a sound hypothesis of why we act as if we are self-conscious. I am willing to bet that if we had an infinite amount of technology, we could reverse engineer a person's brain and make a 100% accurate guess on one would do given a certain situation. This is not self-consciousness, but rather a series of circuits that "decide" for us based on sensory cues that gives us the illusion of free-will. This "decision" should be made in the best interest of our genetic replication. Why do we go to school? To get a good job in the future and be able to a) find a mate with good genes (aka hot chick/stud) B ) make sure our offspring can do the same. Why do we buy nice cars? Same reasons. You get my point.

I believe that decisions that deviate from this in such cases as depression and delinquency, are because of a rapidly changing environment that frankly, some people's brains can't keep up with.

Anyway.. back on topic...

1) Are flies self-conscious? If you don't think so, pretend they were.. would we appear self-conscious to them? If I see a bear in the wild who is carefully nurturing its young, I can feel compassion and love, giving the bear the illusion of self-consciousness. When it attacks another bear, I can sense anger and perhaps jealousy. I cannot sense this in a fly, lizard, snake, or octopus; so perhaps the fact that their brains are so different than ours means that we cannot begin to understand why they do what they do. Does this make them any less self-conscious? Would a law-abiding family man say that a serial rapist is unconscious simply because he doesn't understand why he does what he does?

2) If I was an identical twin, or a clone, would I be self-conscious of both people? We know this is not the case, therefore it must have something to do with matter and not genetics.

But this is where I get confused. If it is simply matter that makes me "kevbo" and not anyone else, then is all organic matter conscious? Will I still be conscious after I die? After all, it's all matter, and when we die the atoms are still there but arranged differently. Is there *one* atom that makes me appear as being one person and one person only?

For argument's sake, we will assume that the CNS, specifically the brain, is where consciousness is. If I could take out my brain and place it in someone else's body, I would assume that I would still be conscious, but in another person's body. This is where it gets tricky and requires some imagination. If we were to replace pieces of my brain with someone else's and woke myself and the other person up, eventually there must be ONE piece where I would be like, "Oh shit, I am in someone else's body, with someone else's brain" How could this NOT be a single atom?

When we discover where this "atom" is, that my friends, will be when we become truly self-conscious.

edit: I guess this was the point virtualcyber was trying to make.. although he explained it much easier than I could have tongue.gif

#28 Pedro Bessa

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Posted 26 June 2008 - 09:29 AM

A living being turns into dust and dust turns into a living being. If you turn into somebody else, is there any difference being dust in between?

#29 emmett2002

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Posted 17 December 2008 - 02:06 PM

Are you all sure that we will not live as different beings in the future?




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