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7alpha-OH versus 7-keto DHEA


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#1 ChemicalPA

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Posted 22 February 2006 - 04:17 PM

been researching and everything i read indicates that 7-keto is the preferred compound for fat burning as measured by the induction of the thermogenic enzymes in liver.

The researchers pretty much know that the enzymes sn-glycerol-3-phosphate dehydrogenase and cytosolic malic enzyme are the enzymes that DHEA and its derivatives "turn on" to burn off calories as heat.

these are the same two enzymes turned on in the liver by thyroid hormone.

so it seems to me that 7-keto DHEA is the compound to take

the data on 7-beta OH is too scant. only one with the acetate still attached which is not a good gauge of the activity of the free compound



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#2 trouble

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Posted 22 February 2006 - 04:46 PM

PA, has anyone done more recent DHEA structure function studies using DHEA analogs, since the first studies were reported in the early 90s (not sure, but I think it was Henry Lardy's lab that performed the original studies)?

I couldn't find much on OH when I last looked, about 5 or so months ago.
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#3 Colin

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Posted 22 February 2006 - 09:02 PM

Balls huh.gif

I just bought 30 grams of -7OH from CNW and 3 bottles of Dermabolics Gel as the delivery vehicle,thinking that to be spot on after reading DS's write up on 7-OH.

So Pat,how far off the mark is 7-OH,relatively speaking,for fat loss?
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#4 eclypz

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Posted 22 February 2006 - 09:29 PM

7keto taken for any more than three or four days, even at low dosages, makes my joints hurt like hell. Not cool...
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#5 Benson

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Posted 22 February 2006 - 09:37 PM

How does that 7-Keto-Etichol that Legal Gear is pumping fit into this?

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#6 raptor2003

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Posted 22 February 2006 - 10:14 PM

QUOTE(eclypz @ Feb 22 2006, 06:29 PM) View Post

7keto taken for any more than three or four days, even at low dosages, makes my joints hurt like hell. Not cool...


7keto dhea? strange

I thought the joint soreness was due to 7-oh dhea?


#7 milwood

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Posted 22 February 2006 - 11:19 PM

my understanding was that the 7-OH made the otherwise (orally)inefficient 7-OXO (or 7-keto DHEA) orally effective. I may have things mixed up, as a scientist I am not. Seems that the 7-keto DHEA is great as a t/d.

30 grams?! That's a pretty good stash!!!

#8 kimboinatl

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Posted 22 February 2006 - 11:22 PM

QUOTE(Colin @ Feb 22 2006, 09:02 PM) View Post

Balls huh.gif

I just bought 30 grams of -7OH from CNW and 3 bottles of Dermabolics Gel as the delivery vehicle,thinking that to be spot on after reading DS's write up on 7-OH.

So Pat,how far off the mark is 7-OH,relatively speaking,for fat loss?

Probably would go with 7-OH orally vs. transdermally. 7-Keto-DHEA seems to work well transdermally or locally.
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#9 trouble

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Posted 22 February 2006 - 11:25 PM

QUOTE(raptor2003 @ Feb 22 2006, 07:14 PM) View Post

7keto dhea? strange

I thought the joint soreness was due to 7-oh dhea?


It's a sign of overdosing.

Try lower doses.

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#10 velikimajmun

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Posted 23 February 2006 - 07:59 AM

QUOTE(raptor2003 @ Feb 22 2006, 07:14 PM) View Post

7keto dhea? strange

I thought the joint soreness was due to 7-oh dhea?



As trouble said its a dose issue, if cortisol gets too low...well you can fill in the blanks.
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#11 eclypz

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Posted 23 February 2006 - 09:45 AM

QUOTE(velikimajmun @ Feb 23 2006, 04:59 AM) View Post

As trouble said its a dose issue, if cortisol gets too low...well you can fill in the blanks.



I have in my possession a bottle of FL7.

Completely unadulterated.

I used to take one squirt a day.

That equals out to 12.5 mg.

Halfway through the first day my mood was lifted a bit and I felt pretty solid.

Second day nothing much would change.

Third day my whole body would ache, my frickin muscles would pop and crack when I stretched in the morning.

so if 12.5 mg every day is waaay overdosing it then I will try a new amount of it but for some reason I think this is very very minimal so I don't know if I'm not just really sensitive or something...



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#12 velikimajmun

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Posted 23 February 2006 - 10:16 AM

QUOTE(eclypz @ Feb 23 2006, 06:45 AM) View Post



so if 12.5 mg every day is waaay overdosing it then I will try a new amount of it but for some reason I think this is very very minimal so I don't know if I'm not just really sensitive or something...


You are either A highly sensitive or B a very good candidate for transdermal delivery.

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"It's a totally cool and extremely clever analysis," said Daniel Lieberman, a professor of biological anthropology at Harvard. "My problem is imagining what it would be like to have a bipedal hominid and a chimpanzee viewing each other as appropriate mates, not to put it too crudely."

#13 bow

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Posted 23 February 2006 - 01:35 PM

QUOTE(velikimajmun @ Feb 23 2006, 07:16 AM) View Post

You are either A highly sensitive or B a very good candidate for transdermal delivery.



I'm going with A. Joint soreness is an indication that it is working effectively locally. As Par as mentioned in the past, systematic cortisol reduction means jack sheat. Transdermal administration is only going to increase local cortisol reduction.

#14 trouble

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Posted 23 February 2006 - 01:46 PM

Huh?

"sensitive' in this case means A. cortisol binding abnormality or B endogenous cortisol concentrations are very low, and further supression by 7-keto analog of DHEA will result in negative side effects.

Joint pain is NOT an indicator that its 'working good'.
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#15 velikimajmun

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Posted 23 February 2006 - 01:47 PM

QUOTE(bow @ Feb 23 2006, 10:35 AM) View Post

I'm going with A. Joint soreness is an indication that it is working effectively locally. As Par as mentioned in the past, systematic cortisol reduction means jack sheat. Transdermal administration is only going to increase local cortisol reduction.


While I agree it is A, the rest of your reasoning is flawed. Joint and muscle soreness would come from a systemic effect not local unless he was applying it to his joints. Systemic cortisol means little for body composition, this is what par was refering to, systemic has other implications such as eclypz's symptoms.

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#16 bow

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Posted 23 February 2006 - 01:56 PM

QUOTE(velikimajmun @ Feb 23 2006, 10:47 AM) View Post

While I agree it is A, the rest of your reasoning is flawed. Joint and muscle soreness would come from a systemic effect not local unless he was applying it to his joints. Systemic cortisol means little for body composition, this is what par was refering to, systemic has other implications such as eclypz's symptoms.


Understood. I was refering to applying directly in the area of joints (for a local effect). However, I was under the impression that cortsol reduction locally would produce "soreness," even if administered sytematically. Am I confused?


#17 velikimajmun

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Posted 23 February 2006 - 02:03 PM

QUOTE(bow @ Feb 23 2006, 10:56 AM) View Post

. However, I was under the impression that cortsol reduction locally would produce "soreness," even if administered sytematically. Am I confused?



This is true as cortisol is produced locally (for the most part). Your initial reasoning was off because local inhibition would not lead to systemically lowered cortisol with all of its tenants.
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#18 trouble

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Posted 23 February 2006 - 02:05 PM

Cortisol and its antagonists are biological poster children for the well known phrase:

"Think globally, act locally."
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#19 kimboinatl

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Posted 23 February 2006 - 02:17 PM

QUOTE(trouble @ Feb 23 2006, 02:05 PM) View Post

Cortisol and its antagonists are biological poster children for the well known phrase:

"Think globally, act locally."

Which is why I think Ab-Solved is pretty cool.
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#20 Syr

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Posted 23 February 2006 - 03:09 PM

70h orally works at least as good as 7keto topically. I used either several times. I feel 7oh has a more systemical effect (i.e. lowering cortisol everywhere, therefore preserving muscles in PCT) while ab-solved is better for fat loss (sort of local action).
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#21 ChemicalPA

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Posted 27 February 2006 - 12:35 PM

QUOTE(kimboinatl @ Feb 22 2006, 08:22 PM) View Post

Probably would go with 7-OH orally vs. transdermally. 7-Keto-DHEA seems to work well transdermally or locally.



why would 7-OH work better orally?
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#22 ChemicalPA

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Posted 27 February 2006 - 12:37 PM

QUOTE(velikimajmun @ Feb 23 2006, 04:59 AM) View Post

As trouble said its a dose issue, if cortisol gets too low...well you can fill in the blanks.



7-keto/OH does not lower cortisol levels enough to have this be an issue. it only lowers it maybe 7% in some people

unless connective tissue expresses high levels of 11-HSD1 (never heard that it did though)
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#23 ChemicalPA

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Posted 27 February 2006 - 12:39 PM

QUOTE(eclypz @ Feb 23 2006, 06:45 AM) View Post

I have in my possession a bottle of FL7.

Completely unadulterated.

I used to take one squirt a day.

That equals out to 12.5 mg.

Halfway through the first day my mood was lifted a bit and I felt pretty solid.

Second day nothing much would change.

Third day my whole body would ache, my frickin muscles would pop and crack when I stretched in the morning.

so if 12.5 mg every day is waaay overdosing it then I will try a new amount of it but for some reason I think this is very very minimal so I don't know if I'm not just really sensitive or something...




i was taking 3 grams of 7-keto a day. that has to beat 12.5mg transdermal by leaps and bounds

i did not get joint soreness at all

but i was taking other things too

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#24 ChemicalPA

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Posted 27 February 2006 - 12:46 PM

QUOTE(velikimajmun @ Feb 23 2006, 10:47 AM) View Post

While I agree it is A, the rest of your reasoning is flawed. Joint and muscle soreness would come from a systemic effect not local unless he was applying it to his joints. Systemic cortisol means little for body composition, this is what par was refering to, systemic has other implications such as eclypz's symptoms.



when it concerns fat loss, 7-keto is not known to work by increasing lipolysis

it IS known to increase two liver theromogenic enymes dramatically however, resulting in burning off of extra calories

these are the exact enzymes that are stimulated by thyroid hormone

so 7-keto is like thyroid hormone but without the protein breakdown aspect

and i can tell you first hand that high dose oral 7-keto works very well. unfortunately it can eat into your muscle gains , probably by reducing available glucose for muscle uptake. i combined with low carb diet which exacerbates this. i was getting flat and weak
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#25 trouble

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Posted 27 February 2006 - 12:55 PM

Huh?

7-keto has been shown to have a positive effect on insulin sensitivity.

Decreasing your insulin spiking by reducing carb loading (especially high and moderate GI carbs) will also aide in insulin regulation correction and altered adipose activity. Since 7-keto DHEA directly opposes cortisol precursor production in adrenals, it has a muscle sparing action, as does improved energy metabolism via insulin management - shown to shift energy source from muscle catabolism towards glucose and fatty acid oxidation.
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#26 kimboinatl

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Posted 27 February 2006 - 02:03 PM

QUOTE(ChemicalPA @ Feb 27 2006, 12:35 PM) View Post

why would 7-OH work better orally?

Because 7-Keto-DHEA supposedly has poor oral bioavailability, and because 7-OH supposedly has to pass through the liver for conversion to take place for it to be useful. That second part is from the Lean Xtreme writeup; I'm not sure if there are studies that actually back that up.
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#27 Colin

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Posted 27 February 2006 - 02:18 PM

So for the sake of me NOT having my supplementation with 7-OH in demabolics gel a complete wash out....

Is 7-OH any less effective used transdermally as opposed to orally?

I've got 2 more dermabolics gel bottles which I'll just save to use with 7-keto but I've already dumped 10 grams of 7-OH into a 8 oz. bottle.
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#28 sabertooth

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Posted 28 February 2006 - 12:42 AM

QUOTE(kimboinatl @ Feb 27 2006, 11:03 AM) View Post

Because 7-Keto-DHEA supposedly has poor oral bioavailability,


Care to prove how 7-OH is orally more bioavailable than ordinary 7-keto?? Especially with both
having no ester attached?

#29 kimboinatl

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Posted 28 February 2006 - 11:52 AM

QUOTE(sabertooth @ Feb 28 2006, 12:42 AM) View Post

Care to prove how 7-OH is orally more bioavailable than ordinary 7-keto?? Especially with both
having no ester attached?

I never said that it's more orally bioavailable. I just said that 7-keto has poor oral bioavailability, and that (according to the Lean Xtreme writeup) 7-OH must pass through the liver in order to be effective. So really what I'm saying is that if the writeup is true that I don't think 7-OH would be that effective transdermally, that's all.
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#30 nightop

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Posted 28 February 2006 - 01:30 PM

Also, 7-keto/7-oxo (the original compound that FL7 and Absolved used) should not be used orally -- as explained in one of Par's product writeups.

As has been said, 7-OH (LXT) should be taken orally, 7-keto/7-OXO should be used transdermally. What happens when you take 7-OH transdermally I do not know offhand.
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