I was just reading once more the PROVIRON bule and thought i ask this question just to confirm......

The PHARMACEUTICAL BULE states that PROVIRON will not effect your spermatogenesis ( no shutdown ) than comes big cat and says it will shut you down......... then the PHARMACEUTICAL BULE states that proviron can stimulate spermatogenesis making sperm count go up in numbers and in quality!!!!!!!

than the bule states in the TREATMENT part ..the usages of proviron......

I will translates sinse its proviron i buy at brazilian pharmacy from shering brazil...

"Indications of use:
1- lowering of phisical and mental capacity of midle aged pacients or older. disturbances due to low endogenous androgens.

2-low libido:disturbance of libido due to low endogenous androgen can be totally eliminated with proviron therapy.

3-hypogonadism: growing and function of androgen-target dependent organs are stimulated by proviron therapy. Promoting secondary male sex characteristics in cases of androgen deficiency in pre-puberty males. Eliminating disturbances in cases of gonodal disturbances after puberty.

and the one that got me intriged....number...
4-INFERTILITY>>>>OLIOGOSPERMY AND DEFICIENCE OF LEYDIG CELLS SECRETION MAYBE THE CAUSE OF INFERTILITY. WITH PROVIRON THE NUMEBR AND QUALITY OF SPERMS AS WELL AS THE FRUCTOSE CONSENTRATION IN THE SPERM MAYBE GET BETTER OR NORMALISED, making PROCREATION PROBABILITY GREATER.


what the hell????? so this means that proviron WILL not cause you any shutdown like stated by big cat.....and will stimulate leydig cells secretion!!!

so wouldn´t proviron be great to keep ball sise ok during AAs cycle...even going further....woudn´t proviron be the perfect aid in a clomid/nolvadex PCT??? no shut down, keeps androgen balance ok, som ati aromatise activity ( probably yeilding some greater test stimulus) and lowering SHBG...........

I see everyone saying not to use proviron PCT but the pharmaceutical info actually says it helps spermatogenesis.........

this really got me intrigged?? what is the final take on proviron for PCT???

and if does not shut you down at all like the bule stated it coud even be used year round..........

calling out all the experts and lets solve this enigma!!!!!!!!!

Something can, theoretically, help spermatogenesis while at the same time negatively affecting the HPTA. There is absolutely nothing here to suggest that proviron, an androgen, will not shut down the HPTA. So, no, don't use it for PCT.

The BULE CLEARLY SAYS "PROVIRON DOES NOT EFFECT SPERMATOGENESIS " this basically means......it does not shut down LH and test production......

I mean..SCHERING is a totally reputable pharmaceutical company.....they first came up with proviron, their researchers that discovered/invented proviron must know how proviron works.......and if they say it does not shut you down it will not shut you down or else they would be getting thousands of lawsuits of patients who were givven proviron for infertility and midle aged patients with low test levels....imagine this midle aged person getting theyr test even mor supressed??? i think they wouldn´t advice to give prov for this people then.....they clearly state that it does not effect spermatogenesis and i am sure SCHERING researchers are much more relyable than BIG CAT.........

what´s your take on this anthony?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...l=pubmed_docsum
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...l=pubmed_docsum

Both of these cast doubt on whether or not privoron increases sperm count, or merely doesn't negatively affect it very strongly. Remember that what SupremeDan posted is straight from Schering's mouth, and hence would tend to discard things which showed their product in a bad light.

Anyway, if something acts as a LH mimetic (like HCG) and at the same time is an androgen, then you have achieved the result that I said. Test Enan + HCG keeps sperm production up while certainly negatively affecting the HPTA.

However, I did find something that said proviron did not significantly affect T levels (or liver values) over 12 months @ 100-150mg ED:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...l=pubmed_docsum

This doesn't really show much, though; we already know from the 2nd study I posted that the placebo group had as good as or better results than the proviron group in increasing sperm count, so there is no telling if placebo would have resulted in a significant increase in testosterone due to increased confidence, etc. Its possible that proviron doesnt bind very strongly to the AR and hence only had a minor inhibitory effect on the HPTA, which was swallowed up by the expected placebo increases in T, resulting in no significant changes.

The last study says there was no change in TEST levels after 12 months of high dose proviron!!!!!!!!!!!

i mean.....i am talking here od a 50mg dose during PCT...if 150mg over 12 months did not supress test how would 50mg supress then????? and the extra anti aromatise activity would maybe help recovery and the lowering of shbg would leave some extra free test for anabolism.................plus preventing sides from low levels of test that occur after cycle........

and SCHERING is a relyable company in all aspects...they are not supplements companies that scam around and say whatever...they are a long run world wide pharmceutical company........wich owns royalties for many drugs....o don´t see any beneffits for them to be lying about proviron for decades....if they were they would be getting lawsuits all the time........simple........pharmaceutical shit is too serious to just invent whatever they want to say like supplements...this is prescribed to millions of patients and they can´t just lie.....their researcher must know more than we do........

plus......this shutdown theory was made by AAs user that just assumed that if it is a androgen then it must supress HPTA................but i haven´t seen any study that shows proviron supress test production......i challange anybody to find it.........

there is a great lack of studies regarding proviron and test correlation so basically all we making are assumptions here......
and anthony we allways regard your thoughts on this...so please post your thoughts when you feel it´s time....

QUOTE(anthony roberts @ Feb 19 2006, 06:10 PM) *

So does proviron inhibit the HPTA or not?


The first thing in red was in regards to what SupremeDan posted and reacted to. He didn't find anything that suggested the HPTA would be functioning as normal, only assumed that intact sperm production would automatically mean such a thing.

If placebo treatments increase testosterone (which i think they do, maybe I'll check if anyone contests this) slightly, and proviron decreases it slightly, then there might be a significant decrease here between placebo and proviron. I say might because there's obviously no way I can tell without re-doing that clinical trial with a placebo group. All we can know is that proviron doesn't dramatically shut down the HPTA like dbol, anadrol, etc would do, but it could (and in near certainty, does) have a small negative effect on the HPTA. I also have problems extrapolating from someone with primary hypogonadism to one with secondary hypogonadism.

For arguments sake, suppose that it does not have a large inhibitory effect on the HPTA. Why use it during PCT? The 2nd point dan highlighted (which was translated as libido, but actually was "potency" i.e. erections) can be controlled with cialis and viagra (which are known to have positive effects on testosterone levels in normal populations). The first is irrelevant (applies to older men who have declining T levels and have started getting weak, foggy, etc). The third refers to its use in developing the penis, facial hair, voicebox, etc, of teens who have low androgen levels naturally. the fourth says "you can increase" sperm levels (does not say proviron increases sperm levels), which we know is the case from the studies I posted. Unfortunately, it doesn't do any better than placebo... this basically just says, sperm will be doing alright while you get benefits #1,2 and 3. Does not say that proviron increases sperm count.

Now, the supposed on-cycle effects are something else to talk about...

The SHBG reduction during PCT may or may not be a good thing. Short term probably good, long term, could be good or bad (if fucking with SHBG interferes with HPTA recovery).

I know that schering is a legitimate pharmaceutical company, but if you really believe that pharma companies (or companies in a general sense) will not lie by omission then you are living in a dream world. I don't blame them, though.

AR negative feedback in the hypothalamus is not a theory (its a known mechanism in the body), and AAS users didn't come up with it.

EDIT: clarification, AR = androgen receptor, not anthony roberts

I think every androgen inhibits the HPTA, but it depends on variables like binding affinity, dose, etc. In this case, 150mg of proviron either inhibits the HPTA "some" or "none", with it being far more likely that there is "some" inhibition. I gave my reasons for thinking it is "some" rather than "none". So, my answer is 'yea' but not to a very large degree at the 50-150mg dosing range.

thanks for the urls....i havent seing it posted there because i used to go only to BB.com forum and brazilians forum wich i moderate.......i just found avant abs forum this year and i just love how things work in here...everybody is so knowlegeble ( well...not everybody lol) ............. what i will do is guinea pig myself....gonna take lab tests before and after 8 weeks of using prov at 50mg a day and i will find the final veredict..at least for me.......

the bigest advantage I see for proviron use is keeping androgen running during PCT......this would avoid sides associated with low test and probably avoid fat gains do to low androgens.......

hey anthony........i don´t you try to get your book published ( translated of course) here in brazil......WE HAVE NO BOOK HERE about steroids...............and everybody here gets really easy in the pharmacy....being the first book here ever to talk in deaph of steroid it would probably sell like water!!!!
just a suggestion though.....

LH levels are usually high at the start of PCT (once the AAS leave your system), but the rate limiting step in recovery is restoration of testicular mass. This is where HCG comes in, as everybody knows. I don't know that increasing LH will do anything, or even happen to begin with, in the presence of HCG (which would be present in an Anthony Roberts PCT). I would like to see reference (10) though, there might be something that I haven't seen regarding this.

In any case, testosterone can (and will) be suppressed during PCT and gradually return to normal levels. You could use proviron during this period without having a large impact on the HPTA, but I still don't see the benefit. it isn't all that anabolic on its own, certainly isn't androgenic, and might interact with HCG.

I see one clear benefit, preserve muscle catabolism typically associated to PCT, i.e. keep all your gains.

how do you think it does that? direct anabolic effect, SHBG reduction?

cool!!!!!!!!!!! i am a close friend of KUSANAGUI (richard) and he asks me to moderate his board all the time LOL i have a nutrition bachelor in the federal university here and gonna start my master on sports nutrition soon..........and i am the one planning kusanaguis diet sinse he wants to start competing soon......i am allso gonna start writting diet articles for ironpump.org soon............as i am close friend and he asked this favor for me....good to know that you know ironpump.org.............it´s gonna be the bigest BB site for sure overhere...if you need any help with translations just hit me a PM and qe can work on that...........

so do these rules also apply to masteron?

does masteron increase sperminogenesis?

i have been running a basic stack of prop/mast and i have noticed an increased volume.

Direct anabolic effect. Mild but enough to prevent catabolism IMVHO.